Tgotch, not only will we run out of the stuff, but imagine the mayhem and human suffering that will precede the time when the last nation with oil in their possession will rule. (Not necessarily as their own resources but possessing it one way or an other - if you get my drift...) I think we are seeing some of it already starting, when you think about this otherwise senseless sacrificing of our kids in Iraq...

I have always thought gasoline as a propulsion fuel had made absolutely no sense for any watercraft, other than something that is purpose built for speed / racing.
When you think about it, thousands of families go to sleep atop a big bomb floating on the water!
What's more surprising is that Insurance Underwriters are just now beginning to understand the implications of gasoline fueled vessel equipped with thirty plus (30+!) years old galvanized steel tanks! How can such a craft ever be considered a "good" risk for underwriting (or going to sleep in for that matter).

I don't know what the answer may be for alternative energy of course, but I know there is no free lunch and no matter what we use to push our boats through the water (other than the good old fashioned art of sailing) it will have to come from something that can also blow up in our faces (hydrogen?).
Battery supplied electric propulsion lends itself to boating so well and is so ideal, but, the juice has to be put back somehow...
Diesel fuel has so far been the safest no doubt to carry aboard a vessel, but unfortunately, due to our dependence solely on fossil fuels through our evolution had wasted the resources that would otherwise have lasted this planet's people for so much longer.
Like the song goes, "I wish I knew then, a what I know now..."

(this started out as a reply to a private email from Cap'n Joe, so I hope he will forgive me for the quotes here!)

Hi Joe
Comments inserted below

--- "Capt. Joseph G. Berta" <joeberta@marinesupportonline.com> wrote:
> Funny, (and timely) that you should mention electric propulsion. I
> believe the concept lends itself very well to the marine industry.

Yup. Not so much for the waterskiing crowd though <grin>.

Battery electrics are all about slow speeds and short distances (given current battery tech.) Large ships have been electric/diesel hybrids for years of course (more for flexibility, etc. rather than for any economies or efficiencies, but anyway...)

The American Navy is investing heavily in the development of electric ships - they're excited by materials that superconduct at not-so-low temps. On the hard, while the Gov't bucks drive towards a "hydrogen economy", folks in the know call `em "fool cells", and sneaking in the back door are batteries, partly "fueled" by hybrid development bucks...

Gawd bless our peacekeepers. We have benefited so much from their R&D. (Think GPS and kevlar here, for example.)

Batt tech hasn't advanced much since the 20th century (lead-acid), but it appears that newer techs are finally being commercialized (large format lithium ion batts that don't blow up w/abuse, for example. See also the Zebra battery, nickel-zinc and Nimh.)

Having said that, at the last Toronto Boat Show, the good ppl at the Surrettes booth remain aloof with their floodie pba's... and Gawd bless `em too. There is much to recommend the "classic" floodie, but in electrics, it's *all* about the batt pack, and maintenance is key.

And maintenance is the one component that'd often missing in any vehicle or vessel operated by amateur owners... it's what keeps the pros in business.

Ultimately, consumers are used to abusing their batts, with casual care and cheap charger electronics.

The Battery-Electric folks say that batteries don't die, they are usually murdered.

This can be compensated for with things like automated watering systems and battery management and charger systems w/sophisticated electronics, but our consumer culture is driven by short-term gain w/little long-term perspective. We are addicted to the "cheap fix", and spend on what is quick and cheap.

So in pba terms, this is where the SLA's and Gells can make more sense.


> Here is a link to some posts I made recently, regarding a discussion
> started out on "gas prices"..., reading it will brief you on my
> opinions on the subject (of electric propulsion) - and, your
> expertise and your input would be very much welcome on the NetBoater
> Forums, if you felt like getting involved:
> http://www.netboater.com/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=24&forum=1


Thanks Joe. I sure don't call myself an expert in any of this though!

I am only trying to educate myself enough so that I can ask intelligent questions and understand some of what the real pros are talking about...

OK. So now I have signed aboard NetBoater. My first post here. Hello all, and best wishes to the good ship NetBoater and all who sail in her...

Honestly can't say I'll be regular crew here. (After all, we would all rather be sailing, right?)

Of late, most of my online effort has revolved around battery electrics onshore, but my real interest is vessels and not vehicles, specifically boats in shuttle service in sheltered waters.

The background:

I am a dinghy sailor (geeees... sounds like Boaters Anonymous eh? <grin>.

My sailing club is located on the south shore of Toronto Harbour, perhaps the busiest harbour in Canada. "Fresh" water, one mile across, and with a speed limit of 6kts.

The Club operates a 40-passenger tender service between the Club and the city, for members and guests. So, seasonal service, alongside 1/2 of every hour and overnights, and slow speeds. With the old boat on her last legs a few years ago, the Club agonized about expensive options for replacement.

What they came up with was a modified version of a "classic" and shippy little steel vessel built in Newfoundland for service in the offshore oil industry to shuttle crews back and forth.

Caterpillar, maker of the diseasal power plant, provided financing.

If all goes well, the new "Queen" will ply our waters for the next 50yrs, and burn over 200,000L of diseasal fuel across one of Canada's most polluted harbours (air and waters.)

As a dinghy member at the Club, I am not a "senior" member so have no vote. I did submit a plan for a largish pontoon boat with full canvas top for aero, and a battery electric, but was ignored.

Among our various governments there are a variety of funds available as grants for "environmental initiatives" and "sustainable transportation", but these were not considered.

Some years down the road, I am still ANGRY.

In the seventies, I stumbled into multihulls. My dinghies since have been catamarans. My current cat is a Tornado, the Olympic class 20-footer. With tramoline, trapeze and stirrups, her class has been officially clocked at over 30kts under sail. This is pretty efficient sailing. In optimum conditions she sails faster than the wind.

As a multihull sailor, I am familiar with the long history of ignorance and prejudice about multi's in the western sailing world.

It has been a useful perspective in my experiences with battery electrics.

It didn't take a lot of digging to realize that the short distance, slow speeds and sheltered waters of a shuttle craft in harbour service is a *perfect* application for battery electrics with the current tech.

Quite apart from any environmental concerns, there are so many opportunities for energy/fuel and maintenance savings. And what value to place on a powered vessel that while underway has no noise or vibration, and does not gas folks on the afterdeck?

For sailors, these are qualities in a boat that are prized...

Anyway, I cracked a yahoo group, as a cheapy filing cabinet to store my research. Any and all with any interest in BEV's (battery electric vessels) are welcome aboard here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QCYCTender/

While the emphasis on the Tender site is larger vessels in shuttle service, I would hope that there is some content there that would benefit the skipper of any vessel.

For example...

The Toronto Islands are city parklands, and as such "motorized recreation vehicles" are restricted onshore. At the same time, the lagoons that thread the islands system are thick with motorized recreational vessels...

The waters often show oily sheens and the pump monkeys at the gas docks keep spray bottles of detergent on hand to disperse the gas and oil spilled so as not to upset sensibilities.

The sailors commonly fire up their infernal exploding engines (aka "internal combustion engine" or ICE) to back out of their slips and motor out to the open harbour waters to raise sails and then shut down their engines. The whole process from startup to shutdown might take 10 minutes. This is a *dumb* way to operate any exploding engine!

On most race nights, in light airs, a little electric motor belted to the prop shaft could easily move these boats out of their slips and away to open waters, in silence and with no smoke or trips to the fuel dock, and at a fraction of the energy cost of gas and diseasal.

> While we are talking forums; Here is a link to a little site a
> handful of us had started for Canadian Boaters & Industry, and are
> kinda nurturing it slowly along. Please come by and visit, and if you
> like the concept, you may want to help promoting it. And, if you ever
> find the Yahoo Group thing is not doing everything you want / or is
> doing too much in the way of throwing ads at you, you could start
> your own forums for Electric Propulsion right here:
> www.canadianboating.org

Well then, I wish CdnBtg.org every success too! Nurturing? Yah, lots of nurturing. "Back in the day" I helmed the Toronto Ship to Shore BBS system. It developed into a little network of S2S systems afloat in Toronto, and DC and San Francisco and NYC etc. At it's height there were a dozen S2S systems afloat with 3,000 sailors aboard. An amateur-run network, and no competition for the hype of the developing internet...

Anyway, the point is, IMHO, nurturing is a key to success with online systems. These online systems are highly automated for system maintenance, etc. but I suspect the good ppl that launch and helm these systems do not realize just how much effort must go into promo, handholding and keeping a "live" and friendly feel to the site! It is very rewarding, but also a real committment in terms of time and labour.


> We could create an "Alternative Power" forums?

By all means. "Alternative" is just a matter of perspective of course. Any bass angler would not view their (electric) trolling
motor as "alternative" <smile>...

In 1900, battery electric car sales in North America matched the sales volumes of all other autos (gas/steam) combined.

Joe, you started out (above) by saying:
>I believe the concept lends itself very well to the marine industry.

There are lots of conspiracy theories that suggest this may not be the case...

Folks can take these with lots of grains of salt, but here goes:

The modern electric motor, spun by power electronics, is an amazing device. The state-of-the-art motors clock energy efficiencies at over 95%. The run-of-the-mill motors easily run at over 80% efficient. The full system from plug to prop can run at over 50% efficient.

The motors have only one moving part, and are rated at over 100,000 hours between bearing replacements (preventative maintenance.) Compare this with the modern ICE, which struggles to reach 20-30% efficiencies.

These efficiencies are easily seen in engine compartments that do not heat up when the electric motor is in operation.

What does this imply for a boat dealer who makes their money servicing their customers engines, comprised as they are of hundreds of moving parts, with filters and belts and timing chains and tappets etc etc all wearing out on a regular basis?

What does this imply for the marina operator that makes their money off the gas dock, while I "refuel" overnight on 30a of 120v in their slip?

What does this imply for governments addicted to fuel taxes?

Administrators in governments are planning their retirements, with pensions plans heavily vested in the success of the petrochemical and automotive inductries, and their continuing profits predicated on massive current consumption.


I can use an analogy.

Take a middle-aged urban Canadian commuting to work (that'd be me.)

My vehicle weights 40lbs, and cost me $500 second-hand. It's motor is rated at 400w continuous. Just over 1/2 of one horsepower.

I bought the vehicle as my rolling education in batteries and motors and chargers etc. I am an accountant and not an engineer. I couldn't afford an electric *vessel* to play with, so this was a cheap alternative.

Most folks don't know what 1/2 a HP looks like... it's about the equivalent of three strings of outdoor Christmas lights, and much less powerful than most home coffee makers or hair dryers.

Yet the little vehicle has a top speed of over 20km/h. In rush hours on congested urban streets, I easily pass the bumper-to-bumper 300HP SUVs and minivans and pickup trucks beside me.

Half the weight of the vehicle is SLA. Two 12v 10Ah (at C-20) batts.

My energy costs work out to about one penny per km, as I buy my fuel from Toronto Hydro. I pay the GST tax but none of the provincial or federal fuel taxes, and of course it refuels anywhere there is a wall plug, so no trips to any gas station.

My vehicle folds up and fits into a shoulder bag. Last year it flew with me as "luggage". The airline thought it was too small to charge me their "bicycle" extra charge. I wheel it into Loblaws and the liquor store. It makes a great shopping cart, and after shopping, I hop on and drive it home.

A full charge (bought from Hydro) costs me about 12 cents, and that's enough "fuel" to carry me about 10-12 or 20km before I need to recharge again. (It's a "power-assisted" kick scooter, so can be kicked instead of using the batteries, and uses no batt power on the downhills, so "mileage" on one charge can vary considerably.)

Usually I bring the vehicle into my client offices, or onto a restaurant patio, etc, and plug in. The truth is, I haven't paid a penny for fuel costs in over two years.

Battery electrics are "disruptive technology" Joe, for better or for worse.

In Canada, our Federal Motor Vehicle Acts take the French approach to the law - all motorized vehicles are illegal, until a classification is created and defined and regulated.

Transport Canada really only takes council from the vested interests - the makers of the cars and ATVs etc. Every day they rubberstamp the latest design of SUV and minivan.

Battery electrics are so far off their radar screens. There is no political will, with a citizenry largely informed by Oprah and their favourite reality TV show.

Transport Canada deems my vehicle a "restricted-use motorcycle". The province of Ontario then labels it an "Off Road Vehicle". As such, if I want to wear a helmet and get insurance, I am welcome to drive the thing anywhere that is not a road or a sidewalk.

Not very useful for todays urban Canadian.

So far I have driven my personal electric vehicle ("PEV") over 3,000km around Toronto in over two years of commuting etc.

It's been a fantastic experience.

Between the electric subways and electric trolleycars and my PEV, 100% of my trips onshore are under electric power (the public transit system doesn't care about my little vehicle as it doesn't have any gasoline onboard...) Zero tailpipe exhaust. Zero fluids dripped onto our roadways.


Anyway, `nough about live with the lubbers onshore. Back to boats!

Trolling motors aside, perhaps the gold standard in marine (electric) motors is the eWheel, manufactured by Solomon Technologies:

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/

Here is a thread from 2002 about their eWheel, which I hope some will find of interest:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=676&highlight=solomon

BTW, if you haven't been alongside that BoatDesign site before, I hope it will be a treat for you...

OK, that's it. I'm all tapped out for now...

Fair winds, following seas, and leave a clean wake.

Lock Hughes

Yeah, it's Battery Boy again <grin>

Quote:
Battery supplied electric propulsion lends itself to boating so well and is so ideal, but, the juice has to be put back somehow...


The secret really is to conserve your energy with efficiencies in design... and maybe some lowered expectations too.

Todays power craft are designed around hugely powerful engines.

Big, fat, sloppy, drippy things... hot and heavy and pretty inefficient too. Fine with gals, but boats need to do better <wink>

Look at the power craft from rumrunning days - long and skinny, built around power plants that had far lower power to weight ratios than todays monsters...

The best electric vehicles (vessels) are designed and built as EV's, and are not conversions.

Anyway. About putting the juice back in?

Lots of options. Wind. Solar. Shore power from nukes and coal <grin>.

Imagine mooring for the night in a tidal flow or river current, with your big prop freewheeling in the passing waters, and the motor acting as a generator to recharge your batts.

(Yup. If you want an efficient prop, you go BIG AND SLOW (rpms), not tiny and high RPMs.)

And yeah, déclassé, but you can carry some hydrocarbons onboard and a genset...

lOcK

OK, one more post, then I'll leave you good ppl alone for now...
<smile>

First, a little history about electric boats:
Russia, 1834: German physicist Moritz Hermann Jacobi presents a paper to the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences about electromagnetism as applied to machines. Four years later Tsar Nicholas I grants Jacobi enough money to design and build an electric motor to be fitted to a ten-oared shallop.


In the world of battery electrics (vehicles) the largest and most amazing online community is the Electric Vehicle Discussion List (EVDL). It averages perhaps 30 mgs a day, with gusts to 40-50.
The breadth and depth of the knowledge and experience there is amazing.

Here is a recent post from the EVDL:
From: "Myles Twete" <matwete@comcast.net>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: article: A whole new boating category begins – ele ctric boats
Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2005 11:18:35 -0800

James Eckman suggested:
> Anyone interested in electric boating/conversion can go to Minnkota.
> com and look at remote controlled motor E44 and E54 or Power
> Drive Bow-Mount Pontoon Boat Motor.

Ah, but this is the world renowned EV LIST---why settle for the
hum-drum from the boating world's Detroit when you can make your own higher performance electric cheaper?

First, check out the E-boat conversions at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/boats.html
My 6HP 36v electric conversion:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492.html

Next, if you're interested in going electric on the water, check out
the electric boat yahoo lists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ElectricBoating/

I currently moderate both these discussion groups.
The ElectricBoats list now has over 800 members and is very active, with lots of sailboat owners converting to electric---and the MinnKota products just don't cut it for owners of 4000#+ craft who want to do hull speed.

Many of our members run with 36 and 48v systems and have been using ETEK, 6.75"ADC, Lynch and other motors for propulsion. We've converted old 10-25HP outboards (as mine is---8HP ETEK) and have a growing number of inboard conversions underway and complete.

Thanks for the info on Johnson's cute foray into electric boating...but it's not Johnson Controls.

-Myles Twete

Excellent posts Lock, and welcome aboard.

Just for the sake of conversation and some thought provoking, a few odds and ends:
I built a wind generator back in the early days of our Caribbean cruising. I bought a used permanent magnet motor (forgot now the Vtage) at that surplus place on Queen St., (forgot the name, LOL) in TO, made my own mount and prop, figuring angle of attack and trailing edge drag from my old helicopter days, and that thing supplemented the use of our Westerbeke generator a great deal, especially in winter months and of course the further East from the US mainland we were, the better it was (because it was not so efficient and needed the real trade winds to get it cooking...)

Then you mentioned Minkota. I designed and built a stern thruster scheme for a Client a few years ago. He already had a bow thruster in a large trawler yacht, and wanted more. Wanted a stern thruster as well. The problem was, due to the configuration of the hull's shape aft, we had no draft to accommodate any readily available set-up from the likes of Vetus nor anyone else. So, I took two 32 Volt Minkota motors and mounted them back-to-back on an electro-hydraulically actuated arm, that would lower them into the water under the swim platform when they were to be used. That set-up had outperformed his big-ass Vetus hydraulic bow prop and we could literally walk the boat sideways (Albeit we did have to shut the stern thrusters down momentarily from time to time to allow the bow thruster catch up!).
Then!, as the boat was a single engine trawler, in an emergency you could pull a pin on the arm, turn the motors from athwartship to fore and aft, and get about three knots of relative speed from the electric motors, as a kind of get-home set up. This could be used indefinitely, as the boat had a 16KW genset that could for ever supply the needed 32V DC.

Your idea of the big prop turning in the tidal flow is interesting and I have been in places, like Nassau Harbour, where that theory could easily have been reality aboard a vessel anchored in the flow. We always had to lock up our shafts when anchored in Nassau, such a strong current going through.
That also reminds me of some thoughts I used to have every time we were crossing the Gulf Stream, thinking why do we not take advantage of that huge flowing river. It is not inconceivable to "hang" a huge water vane underwater between Miami and Gun Cay or Bimini. It's only 40 some miles across, and I can not even imagine the amount of hydro electric power such a thing could provide.....

Getting back to your main subject, the QCYC tender; Since the trips are short and the vessel is tied to shoreside facilities each time she ties up, there is no reason why an electric concept could not be made reality. Good batteries and a smart and efficient re-charging asset could make the whole thing a piece of cake to set up. And, to satisfy CCG safety issues regarding range under adverse conditions, you could have a get-home genset installed and standing by...

As for the aloof Suxxxes floodies, my experience has been that those are not any better (only cost 3X as much) than any other 8D truck battery that the manufacturer claims to be "deep cycle" (but we all know they are not, but are so cheap to make that they can warrantee them for deep cycle use).....
The real world experience will attest to nothing holding up better for deep cycling, than a big bank of good quality 6V golf cart batteries.

I guess I rambled on long enough......

Quote:

MarineSupportOnLine wrote:
Excellent posts Lock, and welcome aboard.

Thanks Cap'n...

Quote:
I built a wind generator back in the early days of our Caribbean cruising. I bought a used permanent magnet motor (forgot now the Vtage) at that surplus place on Queen St., (forgot the name, LOL) in TO,

That'd be ACTIVE SURPLUS Joe. A Toronto institution! Visitors to Toronto should check out Active before they spend $$$ on the CN Tower or whatever <grin>.

Quote:
made my own mount and prop, figuring angle of attack and trailing edge drag from my old helicopter days, and that thing supplemented the use of our Westerbeke generator a great deal, especially in winter months and of course the further East from the US mainland we were, the better it was (because it was not so efficient and needed the real trade winds to get it cooking...)



Cool. I expect to build my own Savonius turbines...

Here're some plans as a PDF, for example:
http://www.picoturbine.com/ptdeluxe-plan10B.pdf

Not much output, but note at the bottom of the plans:
"It is possible to quadruple the power output of the alternator by placing a second magnet disk below the coils."

So, I figure to hang a couple of "doubled" Savonius's off the crosstrees on a stubby mast (get'em up as high as possible, plus insulate any vibration noise.)

While low in output, pluses include easy and cheap to DIY, can be collapsed to stow away, and vertical orientation needs no time to orient itself into the gusts/shifts... and the low rpms and soft sailcloth otta be more "bird and finger friendly".

And I have plenty of flat cabintop for some PV panels as well.

Quote:
Then you mentioned Minkota. I designed and built a stern thruster scheme for a Client a few years ago. He already had a bow thruster in a large trawler yacht, and wanted more. Wanted a stern thruster as well.[SNIP]Then!, as the boat was a single engine trawler, in an emergency you could pull a pin on the arm, turn the motors from athwartship to fore and aft, and get about three knots of relative speed from the electric motors, as a kind of get-home set up. This could be used indefinitely, as the boat had a 16KW genset that could for ever supply the needed 32V DC.


Again Joe, very cool. Illustrates well how little thrust will actually do the job. OK, so maybe no more "hole shots" <grin>

Quote:
Your idea of the big prop turning in the tidal flow is interesting and I have been in places, like Nassau Harbour, where that theory could easily have been reality aboard a vessel anchored in the flow. We always had to lock up our shafts when anchored in Nassau, such a strong current going through.


Yah. Water is about 800 times as dense as water. Three knots of wind current won't kick a wind turbine into spin, but three knots of water current is a whole diff.story. `Way more energy there.

Quote:
That also reminds me of some thoughts I used to have every time we were crossing the Gulf Stream, thinking why do we not take advantage of that huge flowing river. It is not inconceivable to "hang" a huge water vane underwater between Miami and Gun Cay or Bimini. It's only 40 some miles across, and I can not even imagine the amount of hydro electric power such a thing could provide.....


Yup. I've seen the plans. Giant "egg beater" turbines hung upside down below floating platforms, spinning slowing in the Stream. Again, v.slow RPMs so as to not whack the fishies...

Quote:
Getting back to your main subject, the QCYC tender; Since the trips are short and the vessel is tied to shoreside facilities each time she ties up, there is no reason why an electric concept could not be made reality. Good batteries and a smart and efficient re-charging asset could make the whole thing a piece of cake to set up. And, to satisfy CCG safety issues regarding range under adverse conditions, you could have a get-home genset installed and standing by...


Yeah, the current tech is quite do-able. And over the years, as the batts tire and are replaced, the energy storage tech will just get better and better... Check out these drop-in replacements for golf-cart batteries:
http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp

The electric vehicle folks are going gaga about these.

And check out these Zebra's:
http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/propulsion/rolls/rolls2.html

They're just now being commercialized. Mercedes is using them in their new plug-in EV version of the Smart Car.

Speaking of safety issues, and getting a bit OT here, would I be ruffling any feathers if my boat doesn't have a steering station?

I'd be happy to do away with wheel, etc., and drive from the foredeck or anywhere else, eg with the Minn-Kota CoPilot, seen here:
http://www.minnkotamotors.com/products/accessories/copilot/wireless.asp

It's just that on a 32ft. liveaboard, a steering stn. that's used maybe 1% of the time takes up a lot of space!

...actually, it'd be amusing to drive the boat around while standing on the dock too <grin>

Here's a pic of the boat (my own little eboat project):


Quote:
As for the aloof Suxxxes floodies, my experience has been that those are not any better (only cost 3X as much) than any other 8D truck battery that the manufacturer claims to be "deep cycle" (but we all know they are not, but are so cheap to make that they can warrantee them for deep cycle use).....


Good to hear Joe, thanks. Care and feeding is pretty key... It's *all* about the batteries! ... and investing in the best chargers and battery management systems... oh yeah, and not sucking`em dry all the time. Drawing them down no more than 50% makes a huge diff. (In other words, figure out how many Ahs you think you need onboard, then double that...)

Quote:
The real world experience will attest to nothing holding up better for deep cycling, than a big bank of good quality 6V golf cart batteries.


I have read this many times from the electric vehicle folks. More interconnects in a big pack... Some pros and cons. The GC batts might be easier to stuff into diff. cracks and crevises also.

TTYL

Lock